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[mcmillan9-john]

Can somebody help me as i want to make the Regional Cups in the new FM13 but don't know what teams play in which cup. Any help would be great i've found a few sites but i have to translate them to English is there a list of the fixtures anywhere ??

[White]

Hmm, which level is the lowest, that should be included? The german cupsystem is very complicated, if compared to the english.

[Octavianus]

What cups are you talking about? You mean German Regional Cups like WFV-Pokal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%BCrttemberg_Cup
Teams participating in these cups are 3rd division teams and lower league teams according to their region. And these regions are a bit more difficult than only the Bundesländer as there are several regional football associations like the Badischer Verband and Württembergischer Verband in Baden-Württemberg. Or Niederrhein, Mittelrhein and Westfalen all belong to Nordrhein-Westfalen. But Saxonia for example has only one association and therefore only one Regional cup.

Okay, I see your problem.

[mcmillan9-john]

The 21 Regional Cups where the winners play in the DFB Pokal yes.

I do have another idea which is alot easier for this. Have the 54 teams from bundesliga, 2. bundesliga and 3. liga then with the 5 regionalliga

1 Regionalliga Nord
2 Regionalliga Nordost
3 Regionalliga West
4 Regionalliga Südwest
5 Regionalliga Bayern

Have a cup for each one of these using the teams in them leagues and the ones in the Fußball-Oberliga, Fußball-Verbandsliga and the Fußball-Landesliga and the winners and runner-ups of the 5 region cups play in the dfb pokal.

[White]

And at this point the trouble starts.
There are
14 Oberligen
38 Verbandsligen
110 Landesligen
and about 1400 more leagues.
in the lowest leages there are cups as well and the winners qualify for the next bigger cup in the next year.
like 5 or 6 level 10 and 11 leagues together play a cup (mainly called Kreispokal, about 5-10 cups per regional FA) to qualifiy for a cup, in which the level 8 and 9 teams participate. Thats mostly "Bezirkspokal." And again there are at least 2 per regional FA- In this cup the teams can qualify for the "Verbandspokal" - thats the 21 regional cups you want to build.

[Octavianus]

Well. Where to start?

There are 21 regional German football associations. So each of them has its own regional cup. Only teams from level 3 and lower are allowed to participate in these regional cups (and the reserves from Bundesliga and 2. Bundesliga teams tend to don't participate at these cups anymore as they are already qualified for the first round; and nearly all cups have permitted the participation of reserve teams by now, but there are exceptions, see below). So you'll have to check what team belongs to what region.

I would say that is is a lot of effort to simulate these cups. You would have to create loads of leages and teams only to fill the gap for the first rounds. And you have to manage somehow the distribution to the 21 regions. Karlsruhe for example participates in the Badischer Pokal and Heidenheim participates in the Württemberg Cup. But both teams would play at the same level 4 (Regionalliga Südwest) and 5 (Oberliga Baden-Württemberg). So you need (!) to create level 6 and you would have to set these levels for every team from Bundesliga down to level 6 first, to direct the teams to the right cup via these level 6 divisions:
1 Verbandsliga Schleswig-Holstein Nord-West -> Schleswig-Holstein-Cup
2 Verbandsliga Schleswig-Holstein Nord-Ost -> Schleswig-Holstein-Cup
3 Verbandsliga Schleswig-Holstein Süd-West -> Schleswig-Holstein-Cup
4 Verbandsliga Schleswig-Holstein Süd-Ost -> Schleswig-Holstein-Cup
5 Landesliga Hamburg Hammonia -> Hamburg Cup
6 Landesliga Hamburg Hansa -> Hamburg Cup -> Hamburg Cup
7 Landesliga Bremen -> Bremen Cup
8 Landesliga Weser-Ems -> Niedersachsen Cup
9 Landesliga Hannover -> Niedersachsen Cup
10 Landesliga Lüneburg -> Niedersachsen Cup
11 Landesliga Braunschweig -> Niedersachsen Cup
12 Verbandsliga Mecklenburg-Vorpommern -> Mecklenburg-Vorpommern Cup
13 Verbandsliga Brandenburg -> Brandenburg Cup
14 Verbandsliga Berlin -> Berlin Cup
15 Verbandsliga Sachsen-Anhalt -> Sachsen-Anhalt Cup
16 Verbandsliga Sachsen -> Sachsen Cup
17 Verbandsliga Thüringen -> Thüringen Cup
18 Verbandsliga Westfalen I -> Westfalen Cup
19 Verbandsliga Westfalen II -> Westfalen Cup
20 Landesliga Niederrhein Gruppe 1 -> Niederrhein Cup
21 Landesliga Niederrhein Gruppe 2 -> Niederrhein Cup
22 Landesliga Niederrhein Gruppe 3 -> Niederrhein Cup
23 Landesliga Mittelrhein Staffel 1 -> Mittelrhein Cup
24 Landesliga Mittelrhein Staffel 2 -> Mittelrhein Cup
25 Verbandsliga Rheinland -> Rheinland Cup
26 Verbandsliga Südwest -> Südwest Cup (Pfalz)
27 Verbandsliga Saarland -> Saarland Cup
28 Verbandsliga Hessen Nord -> Hessen Cup
29 Verbandsliga Hessen Mitte -> Hessen Cup
30 Verbandsliga Hessen Süd -> Hessen Cup
31 Verbandsliga Nordbaden -> Baden Cup
32 Verbandsliga Südbaden -> Südbaden Cup
33 Verbandsliga Württemberg -> Württemberg Cup
34 Landesliga Bayern Nordost -> Bayern Cup
35 Landesliga Bayern Nordwest -> Bayern Cup
36 Landesliga Bayern Mitte -> Bayern Cup
37 Landesliga Bayern Südost -> Bayern Cup
38 Landesliga Bayern Südwest -> Bayern Cup

1-11 are child divisions to Oberliga Bremen, Oberliga Schleswig-Holstein, Oberliga Hamburg and Oberliga Niedersachsen (level 5 each) -> these level 5 comps are child comps to German Regional Div. North (level 4) -> this level 4 comp is a child comp to 3. Liga (level 3)
12-17 are child divisions to Oberliga Nordost-Nord and Oberliga Nordost-Süd (level 5 each) -> these level 5 comps are child comps to German Regional Div. Northeast (level 4) -> this level 4 comp is a child comp to 3. Liga (level 3)
18-24 are child divisions to Oberliga Westfalen, Oberliga Niederrhein and Mittelrheinliga (level 5 each) -> these level 5 comps are child comps to German Regional Div. West (level 4) -> this level 4 comp is a child comp to 3. Liga (level 3)
25-33 are child divisions to Oberliga SüdwestRheinland-Pfalz/Saar, Oberliga Baden-Württemberg and Hessenliga (level 5 each) -> these level 5 comps are child comps to German Regional Div. West (level 4) -> this level 4 comp is a child comp to 3. Liga (level 3)
34-38 are child divisions to Bayernliga North and Bayernliga South (level 5 each) -> these level 5 comps are child comps to German Regional Div. Bavaria (level 4) -> this level 4 comp is a child comp to 3. Liga (level 3)


To make it easier I would ban reserve teams from these Regional Cups although they are allowed to play within (see Stuttgarter Kickers II for example in this season: http://ergebnisdienst.fussball.de/begegnungen/bitburger-wfv-pokal-gruppe-2/wuerttemberg/wfv-verbandspokale/herren/spieljahr1213/wuerttemberg/M35S1213Wk53506). But still you need to create all (!) Landesligen and all teams (!) within. And after that you have to create 21 single regional cups. And if this isn't enough: Besides the 21 cup winners there are 3 more teams that are allowed to participate: one representant of Bavaria (the 2 losers of the semi-finals play against each other, the winner plays against the runner-up of the Regional cup and this winning qualifies for DFB Pokal), Niedersachsen (the runner-up in the Regional cup) and Westfalen (the runner-up in the Regional cup).

So you see. Crazy.

[P-Jo]

Well. Where to start?

...

Es ist immer wieder Wahnsinn wie sehr Du ins Detail gehst - selbst wenn ein "Projekt" aufgrund zu hoher Komplexität nicht zu realisieren ist.
Hut ab! 

[mcmillan9-john]

That is alot of teams and would be alot of hard work and take an age wouldn't it. It would be easier just to make this up to Fußball-Oberliga level 5 and do as i said but i will not include reserve teams. Thanks for all the info you have been a great help

[Octavianus]

Well. Where to start?

...

Es ist immer wieder Wahnsinn wie sehr Du ins Detail gehst - selbst wenn ein "Projekt" aufgrund zu hoher Komplexität nicht zu realisieren ist.
Hut ab! 

Naja. Ich hatte das schon mal ausgearbeitet, um einen Überblick über die Auswirkungen der Regionalligareform zu haben. Ich musste nur die Pokale ergänzen und hätte doch beinahe den Südbadischen Pokal vergessen. Echt der Wahnsinn, wie viele Regionalverbände es gibt.

That is alot of teams and would be alot of hard work and take an age wouldn't it. It would be easier just to make this up to Fußball-Oberliga level 5 and do as i said but i will not include reserve teams. Thanks for all the info you have been a great help

The problem is: What do you do, when reserve teams are getting relegated from 3rd division to level 4?
Just an easy example: Currently there would be:
18 + 18 + 18 teams from level 1-3 = 54
Now you want to implement 5 regional cups (according to the leagues) and say the winner and the runner-up get the golden ticket = 10
Makes 64.

But! Imagine a reserve team is getting relegated from 3rd division and no reserve teams gets promoted to 3rd division.
18 + 18 + 19 teams from level 1-3 = 55
Your cup winners and runner-ups: 10
Makes 65.
Or when even both reserve teams are getting relegated the first season. Would make 66 teams in the end. You would have to implement some rule to choose the best 18 teams from 3rd division.

But! Imagine 3 normal teams are getting relegated and 2 reserve teams and a normal team are promoted to level 3. Now you have only 16 regular teams and 4 reserve teams at level 3. How to handle that situation?

I see some conflicts here.

[mcmillan9-john]

This must be why nobody has tried it have they !!!! I know its very hard isn't it. How does the game pick the teams at the moment just random ?? I would have to enter each team 1 at a time into the competition instead of picking by leagues is there a option in the editor to not choose reserve teams and can you choose the best teams in a division ?? 

[Octavianus]

That's where I have to say that I'm clueless. I don't know much about the official editor and can only give you helpful information about the quite complicated structure of German regions and regional associations and cups. In my eyes it is impossible to rebuild this accurately in any FM version and you have to tweak or modify some conditions. Unfortunately I don't have much experience with the editor so I cannot help you at this point.

[mcmillan9-john]

Thanks for all the help just waiting for the game to come now might just run the leagues and make a lower league dfb pokal then. Before i go do you have information on the promotions and relegations in the German League and are there any playoffs like in England ??

[White]

Thats even more complicated than the cups are.

In the lower leagues even the number of promoted and relegated teams depends on the number of relageted and promoted teams in the higher leagues. That's because of the playoffs, that are often played between the two 2nd placed teams in parallel running leagues for promotion to the parent league.
The regional FAs try to have the same number of clubs in every league every year. so if two teams are promoted from a league and only one is promoted TO this league, theres one team less thats relegated.
So clubs in the very low divisions have often to wait some weeks after end of the saison to see, if the are promoted/relegated. That's really weird...

[mcmillan9-john]

Bloody hell my heads done in you have a funny way of going about this. Thanks for all your help.

[Octavianus]

I'm only writing it for the Regional Divisions (Level 4). Everything else would be way too time-consuming now and I want to go to bed... in an hour or so.

3 teams from 3. Liga are relegated and distributed to the Regional divisions by regional aspects (I have updated these levels for all level 4 teams but the level 5 teams need a closer review). From level 4 there are therefore 3 teams that are promoted. There will be a playoff (2 normal legs with away goal rule and penalties) between:
champion of Regionalliga Nord
champion of Regionalliga Nordost
champion of Regionalliga West
champion of Regionalliga Bayern
champion of Regionalliga Südwest
runner-up of Regionalliga Südwest
Note: The two RL Südwest teams cannot play against each other in this playoff.

So being champion doesn't mean any longer that you will be promoted automatically. This is the first year of the new level 4 Regionalligen and therefore it isn't clear how many teams will be relegated. It depends mainly on the relegated teams from level 3 (because of the regional aspects). Just imagine 3 southwest teams are getting relegated.
Regionalliga Nord - currently 18 teams, should be 18 teams in future
Regionalliga Nordost - currently 16 teams, should be 16 teams in future
Regionalliga West - currently 20 teams, should be 18 teams in future
Regionalliga Bayern - currently 20 teams, should be ?? teams in future, the rules are a bit complicated here but in the end they should want to have 18 teams
Regionalliga Südwest - currently 19 teams, should be 18 teams in future

[White]

Well, it's some time ago since I had to speak or write in english and it would be even hard to explain in german. It's so complicated, that I'm not seeing through completly as well. If I got half an hour or so tomorrow, I could try to explain it for example the way it is in the regional FA I play in...

[mcmillan9-john]

Thanks for all the help Octavianus you have been great what a complicated system what ever happened to 2/3 up and 2/3 down.

[mcmillan9-john]

How does the computer pick the teams taking part in the German Cup ??

[Mortiis]

i think it's random (from regionalliga)

[mcmillan9-john]

Don't they pick from any lower leagues ??